Hello all, I was drawn to this site starting from a conversation in the office the other day. I am Bob Wrobel , original finder of the treasure in Chicago 25 years ago. I look forward to answering any questions that you may have and maybe delve into the current hunt in Milwaukee. 25 years ago, my friends and I belived there was a treasure in Colorado as well. I am sure I will be bombarded with questions, so please be patient with me. Thank you.

Hello all, I was drawn to this site starting from a conversation in the office the other day. I am Bob Wrobel, original finder of the treasure in Chicago 25 years ago. I look forward to answering any questions that you may have and maybe delve into the current hunt in Milwaukee. 25 years ago, my friends and I belived there was a treasure in Colorado as well. I am sure I will be bombarded with questions, so please be patient with me. Thank you.

AND I know who ShadowRunner is, we went to highschool together!

Okay, I have three images of the casque on my computer. I see the HTML tags. How do I put the picture in?

welcome to our tiny corner of the internet! If you have images on your computer, you'll have to upload them to a public server somewhere, then link them here.  (Other forums have an upload feature, but I forget what the policy is here at Q4T).  If you just paste the URL of the image, we can then click on it to see what you have.  For example hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/S ... plause.gif No need for fancy tags, but you can hover over the buttons on the submit form to see the markup language used by this message board (rather than using HTML tags)

Hi, and welcome!! Or should say Welcome Back? I do have a question. What led you to think there was a casque in Colorado?

10 by 13, please see if you can post those pics.  You were telling me a little about how you actually found it, and that there were 5 of you involved.  Can you explain it in a little more detail?  We are most interested in whatever Byron Preiss told you or sent to you.  Thx.

Here are some of the images of the casque. The one where we found it in the ground and then the other pics taken just last night. It did take us about 9 months to find the location, but were seriously stumped at the final location. At that point we did call the Author and described all our clues and the locations of the multiple digs. Byron eventually sent us a photograph of the freshly turned earth and we furiously dug a hole about 3' square and deep. Being frustrated, one of us threw the shovel at the wall of the hole and a little sliver of dirt fell off revealing the casque in the plexiglass box.

Also, as for any speculation regarding the phrase "Where M & B are set in stone" I did read through some of the posts and it was noted that Byron make reference to the names of Mozart and Beethoven carved in a building facade. However, our group of five -- that would be Shadowrunner; Eric, Dave, myself, my brother; Tim and Dan all took the M&B reference to mean the statues. It helped us solve it, so if anyone wants to claim otherwise....  Also, I read that there was some discrepancy as to the gem itself being either a pieridot or an emerald. It was in fact an emerald (Chicago being the Irish city it is) which I believe (but could not prove) was stolen by an old roomate of mine. I have a new task in life to replace it.

A thousand thank-yous for posting these pictures! It's just magical to see them. After years of searching, it is nice to see so clearly what exactly it is that we're after (the Cleveland casque wasn't in such good shape). I think it's safe to speculate that all 12 casque lids have / had a different time on them. Chicago was the May casque, and that fits right in with 5:00 on the lid. The loss of the jewel is tragic. I'm so sorry. I hope whoever took it didn't get much for it. Please, please stay with us for the long haul, Sir TenByThirteen, and help us find the other 10!

Actually, we believed the time was showing the corresponding verse and picture. Verse 12 and picture 5 -- 5:00? I will be replacing the emerald as soon as I can. As for the person I belive took it, tragedy befell him through his own hand. I feel for his parents. I'm glad you all enjoy the pictures. What lead me to believe there was a treasure in Colorado was in the first verse was the phrase, In the sky the water veers (the great divide) Fortress North, cold as glass (Ft Collins?) small, split three winged and slight(An arrow, made by a fletcher: Fletcher WAS a town in Colorado now named Aurora)Small of scale, step across (Narrow gauge railroad) what we take to be our strongest tower of delight falls gently in December night(Snow)Looking back from treasure ground, theres a spout(Water tank) a whistle sounds(train whistle?) Then again these may just be wild guesses. I'm also a train enthusiast. I have not yet done any searching on the web for grids or even in the pictures. But we always believed in the one in Florida. Fountain of youth, Conquistadors etc...

That's a good thought about the lid depicting the verse-image match. Egbert - can you tell one way or the other from the Cleveland casque fragments?

Thanks 10by!! It's very enlightening seeing the actual casque in its box...and the size of the box! Now I know how small an item it is we're looking for--and that just makes it all the more challenging. If you talked to BP at all--did he ever tell you where in Canada he had been?

Welcome indeed 10x13 Would sure love to hear some of the other ideas your group came upon.  If some of them match some of what we have begun discussing some 20 years after you reached the same conclusion...then perhaps, we are onto something. You were sure that you would be bombarded with questions so let me commence the air raid: Welcome again Sir 10x13 (I think you deserve the 'Sir' title like our own Sir Egg) and I too hope you once again find yourself immersed in the wonderful hunt and help us find the remaining 10 casques.

Thank you so much for the pictures!  and for joining us! did you live in chicago at the time, and is that how you knew one was there, because you were familiar with the area?  do you live in milwaukee now? have you read our posts about image 10 and verse 8, matching lake park in milwaukee?

forest_blight wrote:: That's a good thought about the lid depicting the verse-image match. Egbert - can you tell one way or the other from the Cleveland casque fragments? I will have to sit down 1 night and try to put together my jigsaw puzzle.  At least now I know what the picture should look like.  But, even if it tells us the verse number, that will not help us find the others.

I will have to sit down 1 night and try to put together my jigsaw puzzle.  At least now I know what the picture should look like.  But, even if it tells us the verse number, that will not help us find the others.   ;)[/quote] Nope, but it would be interesting to know anyway. Welcome back, Egbert. And welcome to tenbythirteen. It's nice to have both of you here.

As to the question if I lived in Chicago at the time, yes. I grew up in the western burbs and was familiar with the downtown area. I do currently live in the Gold Coast area, LaSalle and Division are the cross streets and work at the Chicago Board of Trade. I have only been through Milwaukee a few times but do plan a 3 day weekend up there sometime soon. I am trying to get in touch with Shadowrunner and another original member of the troupe so maybe we could perform the daunting task of digging up a SECOND treasure. I have gone over some of the posts about Milwaukee and plan to at least investigate the possibilities. Thank you for your warm welcome, I am glad you all have enjoyed the pictures and the renewed interest in the search. And you can all thank Egbert for directing me to this particular website. Rob

This info was forwarded to me by "TenByThirteen" to share on this thread. [quote]The last few days I had been looking for the building with the names of Mozart and Beethoven in a picture I saw with the carving on it. In reference to the term of "Where M and B are set in stone", as for people commenting that Orchestra Hall with the initials refering to Mozart and Beethoven, please take note that the carving also includes the names of Bach, Schubert and Wagner. Set in stone could mean carved, as in chisled, into the stone or from the stone into a statue. I tend to go with the statue, or the phrase 'M and B' should include 'B, S, and W' as well. Why would Byron only pick 2 names? Why didnt he pick "S and W"? Or even all 5 "B, M, B, S, and W" set in stone? I think this would put to rest the issue of "Man and Beast".[quote]

Forest_Blight, v12, 4/23/06 wrote:: maltedfalcon claims M and B stand for "Michigan and Balbo," but these streets cross 4 blocks to the south and 1 block west of the casque site, and they are not really stone. Both johann and the 1983 newspaper article claim that M and B stand for "Man and Beast," a reference to the statues flanking the western entrance to the park. But that doesn't work either. The statues' titles are "The Spearman" and "The Bowman," and they are set in bronze, not stone. I think the appearance of "The Bowman" in Image 5 is merely to serve as a confirmer for Grant Park, not as a link to the verse (the link to the verse is the fence, which appears in both Image 5 and Verse 12). Forest_Blight, p11, 1/15/08 wrote:: I believe the "man and beast" reference is an early misconception. The sculptures on Congress were never known as "man and beast" - they are called "The Bowman" and "The Spearman": hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indians_(sculpture) Furthermore, they are not "set in stone," as they are made of bronze. There is absolutely no logical link between those sculptures and the "M and B" reference. However, there IS a logical link between "M and B are set in stone" and the names "Mozart" and "Beethoven," which are very definitely set in stone in the facade of a building very nearby on Michigan Ave. Egbert, Cleveland, 9/24/04 wrote:: Flipping through the book, B.Preiss told us that "M and B" stand for Mozart and Beethoven. I have to respectfully disagree. As I've pointed out before... Furthermore, BYRON PREISS HIMSELF told Siskel and Egbert that "M and B" stood for Mozart and Beethoven: It wasn't clear in what way Mozart and Beethoven were involved until we took pictures of that building's facade.

Wasnt this the building whose arched windows line up with the fixture as is shown in the picture.

That's what I thought, too, until someone pointed this out:

doh! you cant get more obvious then that. So in both the cleveland and Chicago images, there is an exact picture of something you can see from the spot where the casque is buried. If Im not mistaken from the spot where the casque is buried you can reach out and touch the object in the picture... (both chicago and cleveland) This is the one reason why I suspect that the solution I have for Image1/Verse 7 in san Franciso GGpark, is incorrect. There is no totem pole in the image.  And as far as The tea Garden Solution, there is nothing in the image from the tea garden either.

Unknown: If Im not mistaken from the spot where the casque is buried you can reach out and touch the object in the picture... (both chicago and cleveland) True for Cleveland but not, as far as I know, for Chicago. Fenceposts like this can be found all up and down the railroad pit in Grant Park, but the "halo" fencepost is a good block away. Was there one like it near the casque site? It's possible -- the post with the halo is also distinguished by a ramp-like concrete protrusion leading up to it (which you can see in the photo). There is only such concrete "ramp" in the section of the park where the casque was buried, but the halo is missing, and it wouldn't have been within touching distance anyway. I've been trying to determine if there was still a halo on it in 1981. The answer may be in some photographs I found that are owned by the Chicago Historical Society, but to get really detailed versions would cost way too much, so I abandoned the search.

Okay, I will concede that if Byron said that the "M and B" meant Mozart and Beethoven, thats what it meant. I stand corrected. Having grown up in the Chicago area I never really did take note of the names above Orchestra Hall. I understand that the statues of the Bowman and the Spearman are of bronze, but did  Byron know this? For as many treasures Byron buried, and for the lack of maintianing records of the solutions, he may have been confused about a fact here and there. Byron buried it with "Mozart and Beethoven" in mind, we dug it with "Man and Beast" in mind. It is VERY interesting to note however, that the comment of the arch in the fence lining up with the arched windows of Orchestra Hall, it is very difficult to tell even when I enlarge the picture of the fencpost. There are many arched windows along Michigan Ave. I believe further that Orchestra Hall is about a block away from the actual burial site. As for being able to touch the arched fencepost, I am pretty sure there was an arched fencepost extremely close to the burial site. Wow, what a firestorm of comments from one picture. And by the way folks, I have been in touch with Shadowrunner and another member of the original Treasure crew. It seems that a future trip to Milwaukee would be well within the realm of possibility. Discuss amongst yourselves .

And to Animal Painter, thank you very much for your help in posting the picture.

Actually, now that I think about it, Orchestra Hall is across the street from the little park on the South side of the Art Institute where the Farie sculpture can be found.

TenByThirteen wrote:: Okay, I will concede that if Byron said that the "M and B" meant Mozart and Beethoven, thats what it meant. I stand corrected. I am pretty sure there was an arched fencepost extremely close to the burial site. Important take aways here. The first line did not necessarily point to a street but within the first few it did. & There is an image of something you can see from the casque burial site hidden in both found pictures.. Good to know...

On another note, if Byron were asked in this manner -- "Did the M and B stand for Mozart and Beethoven?" (Answer:Yes(Since it makes sense and I dont want to be asked anymore questions)) as opposed to "What do the M and B stand for?" (Answer: Mozart and Beethoven). The answer can be construed either way. People can scream and respectfully disagree all they want as to what Byron said, or how he answered whichever question was asked. We dug it up using the concept of Man and Beast. Its what we used, its what worked. Point it out all you want, can you show me the treasure? No, but I can show it to you . We were 18 years old.

umm, wow, those last lines sounded kind of rude.  I really dont think it matters whether M & B were for Mozart & Beethoven {*} or for man and beast since both ideas worked out for this riddle.  The casque was found...Congrats! {*}unless....This may be why he only used Moz & Beet:  It all has to do with my strange idea that each of the casque sites has something in common with another...building a kind of circle between all of the sites. The Wrights Park in Boston...the St Louis Cathedral in N.O...the Rockefeller Park at the Cleveland dig site...etc..  I have briefly discussed this idea with FB.  All of a sudden, we keep finding these 'links' at other sites and that is why I keep making those secretive type comments to FB.  Maybe the site attached to the Chicago site also has referrences to Moz & Beet...or maybe not.

Unknown: On another note, if Byron were asked in this manner -- "Did the M and B stand for Mozart and Beethoven?" (Answer:Yes(Since it makes sense and I dont want to be asked anymore questions)) as opposed to "What do the M and B stand for?" (Answer: Mozart and Beethoven). The answer can be construed either way. People can scream and respectfully disagree all they want as to what Byron said, or how he answered whichever question was asked. Unknown: We dug it up using the concept of Man and Beast. Those are fair points, TenByThirteen. But in 2004, when S&E met with Preiss, there would have been no reason to ask "Did the M and B stand for Mozart and Beethoven?" because no one knew Mozart and Beethoven were carved in a nearby building, or indeed that they had anything to do with the hunt. Only after BP said that "M and B" stood for "Mozart and Beethoven" did we find confirmation -- Mozart and Beethoven are quite literally carved in stone, a block away from the casque site. You say: My belief (and it's only a belief at this point, since BP can no longer confirm or deny it) is that he intended the silhouette of the Archer to lead hunters to Grant Park. Given the silhouette in P5, there would be no need to be redundant by referring to it in the verse, too (let along by the wrong name and made from the wrong materials). I'm not trying to be disrespectful here. I just want to make sure we clarify as much as possible what BP was thinking when he wrote these verses, in case it informs how we go about finding the remaining casques. From the newspaper article, it appears that you didn't need the painting at all, and the whole thing was done using the verse - is that true? If so, quite a feat!! hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_080983a.jpg hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_080983b1.jpg hxxp://kspot.org/trove/ct_080983b2.jpg

We did use both the picture and the poem. Didnt mean to be rude. I think now its a moot point. lets focus our energies on perhaps finding the Milwaukee treasure.

The point of dissecting the Chicago and Cleveland clues in detail and trying to ascertain exactly what BP meant is not to correct or fix the methodology used to find those casques. but to apply BP's methods and thoughts to solving a new casque. so regardless of how the Chicago one was solved, Ascertaining that M&B set in stone refers to a nearby building is important- for instance we can say definitively that all the clues in the verses for Chicago and Clevland are in a certain radius. for chicago and clevland less then 1/4 square mile. very important data. and then this leads to other things. for instance I noticed that in the Chicago Image is the water tower which is on Michigan ave.  The water tower can be described as one of the iconic images of Chicago. The first clue in the verse is Where M&B are set in stone... which turned out to be the Orchestra Hall in Chicago, admittedly way across town from the water tower, but the orchestra hall is on.... Michigan Ave... That means from the iconic image in the painting to the first clue in the correct verse you can travel down a road (michigan ave) turning neither to the right or left and get to the first clue.... Interesting but is there a pattern here? So off to the Cleveland image, mind you I have never been to Cleveland and do not know where the terminal tower is or the cultural gardens... but hey thats what google is for.  So I googled the address of the tower and googled the address of the cultural gardens and asked for directions,....  bummer, the directions took several turns and ran along a curving section of water and then cut inland before making a couple other turns and arriving at the dest. I looked at the map very disappointed and  then I realized, hey! google maps doesn't always go the straightest way.... so I zoomed in and I found the street next to the terminal tower, which google describes as an iconic image of the Cleveland skyline... it is on St Claire Ave.  which went in the general direction of the cultural gardens... so I panned to the right and started to follow the Ave.  Turns out it runs straight as an arrow, turning to neither the right or left, until it arrives at liberty ave (another image in the picture)  MLK Blvd. and the greek cultural gardens.... and the first clue in the verse Beneath two countries as the road curves So to me thats a definite new clue. the iconic image in both found casque images is not near, but on a straight road right to the first clue in the verse... So 10X13, thats why its important to figure out exactly what BP was thinking when he laid out the hunts. Nobodys trying to point out mistakes we are trying to learn from your experience. So now its back to the drawings to look for iconic images and see where they lead to...

If you follow this reasoning, then we should not be looking at the CITY of Charleston, or the ISLAND of Roanoke, because in both those images, there are only those iconic images--no others--and that would mean, by your method, that they were only on the way to other places. Hmmm. In other words, you're saying that the maps visible in both P. 2 and P. 3 are not there to mark the locations of the casques--only to identify the general area where it might be. More like the map of Ohio in P. 4. The Terminal Tower is Cleveland's identifier--much like the Chrysler Building in New York is that skyline's identifier. Then what identifier would there be in the Florida image? (Besides the shape of the state, which is obvious?) Although in spirit I'm not disagreeing, I'm not able to agree in every picture either. That's not to say the method doesn't work in some of the images--but you must remember that Preiss didn't paint the images--John Jude Palencar did--from pictures BP gave him of things he wanted to include. It was really up to Palencar what significance he gave them in any painting. I know BP probably said, "this thing has to be prominent," or "don't leave this out" but he wouldn't have told Palencar how to paint an image overall. so how can any of us be certain that there was a "method" to this puzzle, when, if you look at the knowns, you really can't see one? There is a map in some paintings, not all. There is a clock in some, not all. There is a building in some, not all.  Not everything is given the same kind of importance--and in some, there is hardly anything at all to consider iconic--like Houston's. In some you can see the country association: (Cleveland/Greek, Houston/Arabic, Florida/Spanish) but in others it's not obvious in any way: Chicago doesn't look in any way "Celtic", and New York (if it is NY) doesn't look very "Russian"--onion domes notwithstanding--and Milwaukee doesn't look "German"; neither does Boston look particularly Italian--and I couldn't pinpoint any country for the armor, since it looks like no suit of armor ever made at any time. I think these things were done at different times, with different criteria, and any attempt to make a blanket "method" to solve them is going to be very difficult to use, let alone prove. And...From the way the verses are constructed, I think Preiss had more fun writing them in random ways than he would have if he'd had a method.

Not at all the Shape of Sutter's fort is iconic and the pillars at the entrance of the roanoke park might be considered iconic, even though they no longer exist they were notable enough to put on a post card... Am I suggesting this has to work with every image,?  Nope, but I am suggesting it is probable for the pictures with iconic images. for instance I cant seem to make it work for houston (Wilhouse can you?) Which brings up whats an iconic image... the buildings in the images that have them certainly seem to be I would suggest the doorway of preservation hall is one. I think the legeater in montreal is one. perhaps there is a conquistidor statue in fl somewhere... I'm not suggesting this is the only possibility but I would love it if others in the group held this idea up to the light, kicked it around, bang on it a bit and see if it makes any sense. IF not lets disreguard it and look some more. Its just  a theory , while tenuous, so far it has worked 100% of the time with found casques.... BTW where has Eggbert gotten himself off to?

I'm right here, reading and thinking.  I believe we can all agree that the image gets you to the general location, and the verse gets you to the exact location.  So, it would make sense that some of the things in each image can be seen in the surrounding area.  The Cleveland Terminal tower was probably put in the Cleveland pic just to identify "Cleveland."  You cannot see the Terminal Tower from the Cultural Gardens where the treasure was buried.  So, the Chicago Water Tower was probably also put in there just to identify "Chicago."  Malted Falcon's theory of the images connecting up streets is a very interesting one, but I guess we would need to find a third treasure before we can confirm it.  BP did not mention anything regarding "streets" or a "pathway" when discussing the images in the Cleveland pic, however. Just like some parts of the pics are actual objects, I also believe that most parts of the verses are actual descriptions of things in the area rather than metaphors or vague meanings.  For example, "the air smells sweet" in a verse probably really means that you can smell something sweet in the area (such as chocolate), and is not some reference to bright skies or some "happy place" like "Flower City."  Just my 2 cents.

Egbert wrote:: BP did not mention anything regarding "streets" or a "pathway" when discussing the images in the Cleveland pic Glad your still here, I hadnt seen any posts in a while. I would think if there were still secrets to be had in the pictures and verses, especially those that impact other unfound casques BP wouldnt have come right out and said something like "Did you notice the Picture is tied to the verse by a direct path?" Was he pointing out clues you hadnt noticed or just confirming the ones you had? Still with all the streets in Chicago and cleveland, what are the odds that an object in both paintings is on the same street as the first clue yet across town.... Im not expecting it to work for every picture/verse combo,  but in the ones with buildings or iconic images, Im willing to bet it does work...

Unknown: I would suggest the doorway of preservation hall is one. I think the legeater in montreal is one. The word "iconic" does not mean "we found it". It means that it stands for something . An icon is something that everyone would recognize as referring to a particular thing--in our case, a particular location. The legeater in NO WAY says "Montreal." the door to Preservation Hall is not iconic--it's just a door in New Orleans, and there is more than one.  These are not "iconic" images.  They are merely depictions of things that can be seen. The Terminal Tower in Cleveland is iconic. It is an integral part of the skyline--and stands for the city in other ways. The City Hall in Milwaukee is iconic. The St. Louis arch would be iconic--the Spanish conquistador is an iconic symbol of Spain's involvement in the New World, but not necessarily of FLORIDA--since there is more than one symbol that everyone would probably associate with Florida--(such as a pair of round mouse ears (Disney) or an alligator--and since Spain was involved in more than one place in the new world.) You can't just go 'round calling everything you see in an image iconic. In most of these images, the separate parts are symbolic--not iconic--and that's our problem: INTERPRETATION.

Oh I agree with you, you are using the word iconic exactly as I was. I will disagree and say the arched doorway of the preservation hall in NO is an iconic representation of new orleans, without a doubt. search google images for preservation and new orleans and see. the legeater - well you have me there. perhaps it is iconic if you live in montreal Then again maybe I dont mean iconic perhaps I just mean well known.  I only chose the word iconic because when googleing the water tower and the terminal tower both were described as iconic images of the cities they are in.... BP wouldnt have had google or the google descriptions. so Im sure he never even considered the word "iconic". Still he was obviously looking for images that represent certain cities.

malted, Why don't we just say "recognizable local landmark".... In Marietta, GA it would be "The Big Chicken" AP

Unknown: I will disagree and say the arched doorway of the preservation hall in NO is an iconic representation of new orleans, without a doubt. search google images for preservation and new orleans and see Just did. I have to say, this convinces me even more that the arched doorway is NO ICON. It's not really arched, for one thing; there is a rusty arched insert with rays in a SQUARE door--but the doorway itself is not arched. Arched doorways abound in thousands of places--and there are hundreds within a few blocks of P. Hall. None are particularly distinctive and if anyone was looking for Preservation Hall by using this landmark, they'd probably miss it. If you want an iconic representation of NO, you use the cathedral in Jackson Square--or a mardi gras float. You don't use the doorway to Preservation Hall. That's a stretch bv anyone's imagination.

If you want to talk "iconic" then what about the WTC?  Those towers were icons for the whole world to see.  That's why they are gone now.  Shecrab, I wish I could convince you that image12 is NY.  We could use your insight on this one.....Only if you are convinced. The same goes for Egbert.

I would say it isn't the image or appearance of Preservation Hall that is so iconic of New Orleans, but rather the place itself and its name. Preservation Hall is one of the true treasures of the French Quarter, and I (at least) knew about it long before I had heard of The Secret .

I completely agree FB. Not the image....the name.

shecrab wrote:: If you want an iconic representation of NO, you use the cathedral in Jackson Square--or a mardi gras float. You don't use the doorway to Preservation Hall. That's a stretch bv anyone's imagination. St Louis Cathedral in Jackson Square would INDEED be {in your definition} iconic.  In other's definitions, it could also be considered a very recognizable building in N.O., etc...  So, why use 'Preservation' in the N.O. P and not the SL Cathedral?  Easy...because the casque is buried there!  And low and behold....Preservation Hall is on St. Peter Street....and what pray tell is just down the street w/ no left or right turns? Jackson Square Why oh why can't {Stonewall} Jackson Square be "At Stonewall's door".......?

Sorry Fox, I think I solved the P9/using verse 7 tonight. check the p9 thread.

Unknown: Why oh why can't {Stonewall} Jackson Square be "At Stonewall's door".......? I think it's a lot more likely than Montreal. No offense, Malt.

fox wrote:: St Louis Cathedral in Jackson Square would INDEED be {in your definition} iconic.  In other's definitions, it could also be considered a very recognizable building in N.O., etc...  So, why use 'Preservation' in the N.O. P and not the SL Cathedral?  Easy...because the casque is buried there!  And low and behold....Preservation Hall is on St. Peter Street....and what pray tell is just down the street w/ no left or right turns? Jackson Square Why oh why can't {Stonewall} Jackson Square be "At Stonewall's door".......? You know I completely agree with this. (Not that I think you want to ever be on my side.)

can anyone tell me exactly where the casque was found?  was it buried by the fence or at the end of the row of trees? beside a tree? either way, the image's jewel is not by the fence or a tree. i reread the article but it still wasn't clear to me.

not sure if it is just me or not but i still dont think the jewel in the p represents where the actual burial site in the park is.

Fox, I tend to agree. I dug up in the zoo around every pole. If the picture was an actual map, rather than a representation, I'd have found it. wilhouse

all  i can see in the grant park map is a square..and there are squares in the image.....but that's not great could someone tell me from this picture, where the casque was found? maybe circle it, hint hint cw0909 hxxp://www.millenniumpark.org/parkevents/parkmap.pdf

I think you have the wrong park there slappy.

lol that's great! i'm sorry! could u give me a link? guess popcorn's not a good breakfast. is it really not the right one?

slappybuns wrote:: all  i can see in the grant park map is a square..and there are squares in the image.....but that's not great could someone tell me from this picture, where the casque was found? maybe circle it, hint hint cw0909 hxxp://www.millenniumpark.org/parkevents/parkmap.pdf slappy this is from memory and cobocks newspaper post hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... ic=759.285 i tried shadowrunners links could not get them to work hxxp://troll-werks.com/Millwaukee%20site.htm hxxp://www.troll-werks.com/ google map grant park hxxp://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS290US290&um=1&ie=UTF- 8&q=Grant+Park,+Chicago&fb=1&split=1≷=us&cid=0,0,10622454099765493272&ei= z9iMSef9B4GCtwfrvpGTCw&sa=X&oi=local_result&resnum=1&ct=image as you can see much has changed in 20+yr, fence is gone and i dont think the rr tracks work any more, a bike path now i think

thank you so much cw0909! i don't have much time today, but i will reread the old posts soon. i appreciate you doing that research, your pictures are always so good. thank you for taking the time to do it (i know you are working on your own ideas), i really appreciate your help!

That is not where the casque was found. It was buried to the west of that spot, much closer to the tracks.

thanks fb, i noticed in the top pic of my pics was wrong was going to change it, the little man was suppose to be in the left hand corner, i couldnt remember which corner, so i had posted both, thanks again

Nice visuals FB....as always.

forest_blight, that is perfect, just what i wanted to know! when i get a chance i will search for that area to see if there is any shape from the image, around the collar or even around the ear, to see if that shape is in the park at that exact spot.  like that ruffled edge at the side of the collar. tho i think it might just pinpoint a certain area of a park, it still might help with the others. thank you!

Several of us have been to that spot to do exactly that -- heck, I've been there 3 or 4 times, book in hand. The fencepost is the only spot-on visual reference near the casque location that I could find. Still, it's a neat spot to visit. The last time I was there the whole corner was fenced off as they were repairing the bridge (badly needed), so the actual spot may no longer exist.

forest_blight wrote:: The fencepost is the only spot-on visual reference near the casque location that I could find. Not entirely true my friend.  Last time I was there {still trying to find the pic I took} within eyesight of the burial site was a statue of an ugly man with a very odd hat on his head which almost resembled {for lack of better words} a castle...or perhaps an old windmill.  Man I wish I could find my pictures

I meant the area right around the casque. If you mean the Water Tower... it's a Chicago icon, but is several blocks away, across a river, and not visible from Grant Park.

No, I was just goofing with you....pretending that I saw a statue that looked like our wart faced guy...& it even had an odd hat.  Of course, I saw no such thing.

Sorry fox, I think I must be humor-impaired today.

FB, excellent pictures of where the casque was buried. And yes the area has changed quite a bit however the site remains accessible. Sorry I havent  been around in a while, busy with work and military (less than 2 yrs left in the IL Gaurd). And thank you all for the information about shadowrunner, we have made contact with each other and things are well. I am still planning a trip up to the Milwaukee area someetime in the future. Lets see how excited this gets everyone! LOL

So...was this casque buried exactly midway between the fencepost and the wall-fixture...? Was that tree there...?

no that tree was not there.

maltedfalcon wrote:: no that tree was not there. That clearly shows what we are up against after 30 some odd years...

maltedfalcon wrote:: no that tree was not there. (Thanks malted...)

I am puzzled by the M and B confusion.  Preiss says they were Mozart and Beethoven...tenbythirteen says they were Man and Beast...  the casque itself depicts a man and wolf (beast?) painted on it.  Although the Spearman and Bowmn statues are themselves bronze, they are set in stone pedastals.  The pedastals themselves might not seem significant, but I'm gaining more and more interest in Preiss' utility of a foundation theme.  Foundations are roots, pedastals, first pioneers, or even ideas which support principles at the core of American history.  Consider our wars, laws, congress, and everything that made immigration possible.  This is all very interesting and puzzling.

erexere wrote:: I am puzzled by the M and B confusion.  Preiss says they were Mozart and Beethoven...tenbythirteen says they were Man and Beast...  the casque itself depicts a man and wolf (beast?) painted on it.  Although the Spearman and Bowmn statues are themselves bronze, they are set in stone pedastals.  The pedastals themselves might not seem significant, but I'm gaining more and more interest in Preiss' utility of a foundation theme.  Foundations are roots, pedastals, first pioneers, or even ideas which support principles at the core of American history.  Consider our wars, laws, congress, and everything that made immigration possible.  This is all very interesting and puzzling. Don't be overly puzzled, you are reading too much into it. The confusion comes from people on the board trying to reverse engineer the solution to Chicago, before we were able to make contact with the actual chicago discoverers. We had the verse, image and a general location for the casque and even then it was difficult to make understand the actual solution. M&B was very confusing I think I was leaning toward M&B having to do with Michigan avenue and Balbo ave although some people thought the Man and Beast (the Indian on the Horse statue was a strong possibility too.  However all that goes out the window when The people who found the casque said that BP said M&B was a reference to the Names Mozart and Beethoven on the facade of the Chicgo Symphony bldg at 200 michigan Ave. There is now no confusion at all.  also all the casques were from the same mold so what is on a particular casque wouldnt matter toward the verse.

Thanks, maltedfalcon.  It then makes sense that Preiss is being obtuse to get the overthinkers riled.  Using 'set in stone' instead of 'writ in stone'  implies an object is set like a gem or something.  If we take Preiss at his word, then its cleared up and M and B are Mozart and Beethoven, but that also means we have to exercise caution when taking any line too literal.

erexere wrote:: Thanks, maltedfalcon.  It then makes sense that Preiss is being obtuse to get the overthinkers riled.  Using 'set in stone' instead of 'writ in stone'  implies an object is set like a gem or something.  If we take Preiss at his word, then its cleared up and M and B are Mozart and Beethoven, but that also means we have to exercise caution when taking any line too literal. Actually, the lesson is the exact opposite.  If anything, the solvers should have been looking for a literal M and B.  If they had, they might have found Mozart and Beethoven right in the same place.  Instead, they interpreted the statues as "man" and "beast", which, fortunately for them, happened to not screw them up. BP isn't trying to get the overthinkers riled.  That's all self-inflicted.

I keep considering the Thelucydides and Xenophon line and taking that literally gets us a great starting spot at Boston Public Library.  Why wouldn't Preiss use the same tactic of "If T is north of X"?  I'm afflicted.

Yeah, BPL is a great starting place for that verse.  Where to go from there is a little trickier.

bigmattyh wrote:: BP isn't trying to get the overthinkers riled.  That's all self-inflicted.

forest_blight wrote:: That is not where the casque was found. It was buried to the west of that spot, much closer to the tracks. Hi, can someone refresh us on where the Water Tower is located?  Was it a couple miles north or much closer?

from your picture straight up a couple miles on michigan

Something I must have wrong here is the idea that the casque was buried in the middle of four equally planted trees AND had a fence and fixture on either side of some perspective, coming from the shoulder of Lincoln perhaps? Maybe someone can tell me, was it more like this, where the casque wasn't buried in the evenly planted area, but was it in this less landscaped area with the yellow arrow? I guess it was like this,

Yes what you are missing is the casque was buried referencing a grid of trees that do not exist anymore. it was near the fixtures but not lined up with them it was lined up with the trees. basically it was closer to the tree than your arrow.

Thanks.  It's still a bit confusing.  I'd prefer to understand something defined with maximum precision, like connecting four fixed points for an intersection.  The line "central too" has me lost.  What is central?  Standing in the center of the corner most square of the tree grid?  Taking a line off the fence post to a spot that has a normalized perspective where all the trees fall into a straight diagonal or something?

"Central" is a reference to the Central Line, a train service that ran on the tracks just yards from the burial spot.

There was a row of 10 trees and 90 degrees off those trees was a row of 13 trees the casque was at the intersection of the two lines where there was a "missing" tree" X * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Sorry for bumping this thread, but I found this eugene monument right near the great lakes, and is from 1922. hxxp://www.mediafire.com/conv/5c0057ad5c2483fbab18f66f0c7e7c0d71f89bbdeb558d89d5a10c849377d67c6g.jpg i was amazed at the similarity to the image's fairy, and it's very near proximity. the woman's hand from the great lakes is spot on to to that of the hand of the fairy in the image, however. but this one has wings while the great lakes' doesn't. it made me wonder about the NOLA pic, and the proximity and similarity between clockboy and jackson and mcdonogh. or perhaps the flowers on jackson square entrance and in story land.

Juicy discovery: First line, Where M and B are set in stone "set in stone" is idiomatic when speaking of an arrangement or agreement to suggest it's a "done deal". The word 'grant' is defined as an agreement, exchange or transfer. I believe this is our first and most useful clue to focus on Grant Park.

That sounds very tenuous at best, with no actual connection to the word, you could come up with several words besides grant. Actually this is a great example that shows this kind of mulit-level wordplay was not used in the Secret, since you have to go to such vague depths to make it work at a known found casque/solution.

There are always options where word play is at work, but the list isn't unfathomable long as you might suggest. There is nothing, absolutely nothing tenuous going on here, if there was you would do best to be extremely specific about what is tenuous.  Is the phrase 'set in stone' not applicable to a well known idiomatic phrase?  Is the word "grant" not up for consideration for some specific reason or standard you have failed to mention?  Please be specific or reference a citation if you have one. If its just a matter of opinion, fine.  For me this is a matter of consideration based on simple observation of a dictionary and familiar phrases.  I believe I made that clear by use of words idiomatic and definition.

Set in stone is definitely idiomatically equal to done deal or its a deal or simply Deal! it is also idiomatically equal to agreed, contracted a truth, accomplished fact, certainty, cold hard facts, done deal , done deed, fact of life, grim reality, hard facts, irreversible accomplishment, irreversible act, irreversible truth, matter of fact, reality, self-evident fact, undeniable fact a grant is indeed idiomatically equal to an agreement, exchange or transfer. and admission, allocation, allotment, alms, appropriation, assistance, award, benefaction, bequest, boon, bounty, charity, concession, contribution, dole, donation, endowment, fellowship, gratuity, handout, lump, present, privilege, reward, scholarship, stipend, subsidy you have to translate the meaning of set in stone, to equate to done deal - or  agreement.(ignoring the myriad of other options available. then you come back from Grant to agreement. Your methodology shows you don't get from Set in stone to Grant, it shows you get from Set in stone to agreement and then you jump to knowledge of the solution and  go  from Grant to agreement.  all of which only becomes useful or considerable after the fact of finding the site. making it pretty much unusable as a method. and too far-fetched to be plausible Where as if you use the simple straightforward, multiply proven methodology of starting at the iconic image and traveling in a straight line until you reach the start of the verse.  you arrive simply and definitely at grant park.

That's why it's juicy.  Just to be clear, I only considered 'set in stone' as an agreement and I thought about the word 'grant', THEN I thought about Grant Park. It is very loosely driven with a broadness of options and that's my point.  I'm not saying it's an easy and practical as a methodology, but it seems to be the finess that Preiss has worked into his puzzle to deliver an overlapping asthetic. I say it's a methodology just the same, and It's worth a shot trying to analyze the hell out of the first lines of each verse.  If you have the means to consider the many options for alternative word choices or a sense for partial phrases and you're willing to play with the homonyms, you should give it a try.  These puzzles aren't surely arn't for the weak of heart. Heck, I was just considering the verse 10 line "Or more" as a homonym for "Armoire".  If I'm right, then it fits the tall two door'd cabinate that contains the giant checker pieces to the giant outdoor checker boards in Stanley Park.

just because there is a verbal association you can make between three words, doesn't offer any kind of strong evidence that it is any part of the quest or solution. It doesn't shed any new light and doesn't offer a methodology we can use to apply to other casques unless you can show how to apply it to another solution its kind of useless not a juicy discovery.

I had a hypothesis that the first line of each verse puts us on the first step to the casque.  I see it working for all the verses once we painstakingly identify their nuance.  I tested my hypothesis on the Chicago verse and the Cleveland verse and it really does have juicy goodness. The image path has it's own triage of markers.  In terms of a picture we see all the image clues at the same time and we wouldn't know precisely which comes first.  It takes a moment of trial and error, but soon enough we gather a sense of direction.  Water Tower, road, concert hall, statue, art school, train tracks, trees, fixture, fence..ah ha!.  Terminal Tower, road, curvy road, columns, wall, ah ha!  Only each time the verse path adds a keen and defining edge which grants us access to the exact location for the casque. I'm ecstatic about discovering the answer to the riddle of "beneath two countries".  I only did so in hindsight once I tried to analyze the layout of countries in the Cultural Gardens and saw that there was no sense in Greece being below two countries otherwise.  It had to be the special case that is related to the Vatican being a sovereign nation within the borders of another country.  There's a lot of countries with interesting labels for countries of various status, but the Vatican sets itself apart.  I thought Bhutan was like the Vatican, but it shares it's borders with multiple countries. Anyways, you present you're own hypothesis that there's some specific form of exclusion for how to approach these puzzles or that there's no methodology if it doesn't apply to all puzzles equally.  They are quite disimilar in each of their approach.  One puzzle uses an acrostic, one puzzle uses a book quote to introduce us to a true historical account of an island treasure, one puzzle drops an idiom for being stuck in thought "hit a stone wall", another simply starts with a man's last name.  I call it a methodology of careful execution of the verse, first line first step, second line second step, etc. combined with the image and it's thematic content.

What is the understanding about the reason why the first letter of each of the words in the last line match the intro letter clues?  M B and R, Rumble Brush and Music?  L is for Lincoln, though the word Hush seems like it should be Lush...

I see now.  The sound of ...rumble, brush and music, hush = conductor.  A train rumbles yet has a conductor checking tickets.  A brush in an electrical sense allows for electricity to conduct when the circuit is closed.  Music events may have a conductor directing music. I am almost certain there wouldve been a specific object near the dig site that conducts... Hush, on a line of its own, is about supressing a sound.  I think were looking for a word having to do with restraint but also fits the corner end area of Grant Park.  Curb?  Does the word "seek" support another object or area description such as "corner"?  Example: the street gang cornered me in the alley.  The "corner curb"?  Seems like a very specific type of pinpointing clue.  Difficult to prove at this point since the area has been altered. I know people think they KNOW everything about the found casques, but I disagree.  There is very strong evidence to support there is a word specific set of directions to find these casques.  Using a dictionary should be everyone's first order of business.

erexere wrote:: I am almost certain there wouldve been a specific object near the dig site that conducts... Looking at the fence you have the train tracks in the background.

The Fair Folk are also known as the People of Peace, which crops up more than once in the book. hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/public_ ... t-info.jpg I see "Hush" as a throwaway reference to the Elfin people who hid the casques, like the "Fair remuneration". (Just the way I see it; not something it's ever going to be possible to prove one way or another.)

Rumble = nearby train tracks Brush = nearby art gallery Music = nearby music hall Plain and simple. Which in no way ties into Amelia Earhart because Plain is a homonym of Plane (or airplane) and simple is the antonym of difficult and the most difficult flight I can think of is Amelia's last flight. This is not how these puzzles work, as fun as that may be. Oh my....this is how is spirals out of control...I was just making up a ridiculous comment but then found this hxxp://galleries.apps.chicagotribune.com/chi-130426-amelia-earhart-pictures/ We have to stop digging to deep to force fits. That is where it leads us.

We shouldn't stop short of understanding the nature of these puzzles.  That is the main obstacle to finding casques.  I'm freeing myself from the shortsightedness.  I'm learning that homonyms aren't fitting with this the more I see that exact definitions are holding.  Please take a moment to reconsider things.  Your mistaken if you think I am saying all is homonymous or random association.  You have to contend with oversimplifications in the same way, since they are no more determined as "right or wrong" and in fact fail to work in a structured format.  Saying something is just as it is, a cigar is a cigar, is abandoning the process of problem solving.  The same goes for applying Occams Razor to a situation that has been framed poorly.

erexere wrote:: We shouldn't stop short of understanding the nature of these puzzles.  That is the main obstacle to finding casques. The main thing preventing us from finding theses treasures is THE PASSAGE OF TIME. Things are changing, trees are growing, visual confirmers are becoming more obscure. I believe we have a good grasp on the nature of these puzzles, Sir Egg can attest to that.

yes that is absolutely correct. If we had simply been on the scene in 1983 with what we know now I believe Houston, San Francisco, St. Augustine and Roanoke all would have been found, with Boston, Milwaukee and New Orleans, close behind. And I believe as more casques were found the hunt would have become easier and easier as the methodology would have become more and more obvious. We have the 2 casques methodology solidly deciphered hidden with the exact same method. Yet people insist on discovering new (untested) methodologies. Logically what are the chances that out of 12 the two found casques have exactly the same methodology and the other 10 are different.  Yes there is a chance, but I believe it exceedingly small.  What are the chances that some(or all) of the unfound casques use the exact same methodology. Exceedingly High. That was my logic with SF so when I applied it to the SF image (and verse7 arbitrarily) I got farther then  I had in the previous 20 years. Now I am up against an environment that has changed dramatically in that time. I bet if we had the ideas we have now in 1983 the location would be obvious.

Exactly

I don't even think these are puzzles.  They are poetic instructions, maybe bordering on riddles, but these are not ciphers to be solved. I also think many of these casques are gone.  Missing.  Destroyed by Mother Nature or encroaching civilization, buried under concrete or washed out to sea, crushed by tree roots or shifted by the sands of time.  We might have already dug in the exactly correct location but at the wrong point on the space-time continuum.  And without finding a trace of what had once been there in that spot, we may never get confirmation that we were right all along.

The solutions are gone, the jewels are gone, and the author is gone.  However, I still think there is someone around who knows at least about a few of the treasures.  John Jude Palencar probably still has a recollection of where these treasures are, at least from the photos and other items which were sent to him by BP to draw the illustrations.  He probably still lives in Cleveland.  It may be possible to convince him to write down his memories and seal them in an envelope or vault, to be opened in the event of his death.  I would think the only way to do it, is to have someone in Cleveland actually go "interview" him, or something like that.  I think that would be our last shot.  When I spoke to him over the phone many years ago, he implied that he did remember some things, but that he considers himself still "sworn to secrecy."

Egbert wrote:: The solutions are gone, the jewels are gone, and the author is gone.  However, I still think there is someone around who knows at least about a few of the treasures.  John Jude Palencar probably still has a recollection of where these treasures are, at least from the photos and other items which were sent to him by BP to draw the illustrations.  He probably still lives in Cleveland.  It may be possible to convince him to write down his memories and seal them in an envelope or vault, to be opened in the event of his death.  I would think the only way to do it, is to have someone in Cleveland actually go "interview" him, or something like that.  I think that would be our last shot.  When I spoke to him over the phone many years ago, he implied that he did remember some things, but that he considers himself still "sworn to secrecy." I think talking to him would be the best thing for this hunt. JJP may not know that Preiss intended the solutions to be revealed if he passed. Sadly, that was the case and may be he might feel compelled to help us. Even if he doesn't recall the solution spots he might be able to remember what some of the hidden images were in paintings. At the very least he might tell us which are clues and which are just part of the paintings. However, I think you are the only one who might have a shot at getting him to talk, Egbert.

I live a half hour away from JJP. That is if he still lives at the same place. If there's a way to convince him to help I would be glad to sit down for a chat.

The idea I had was to put together some kind of donation to a charity of his choice if he'd agree to speak about which elements of the images were taken from photos Preiss gave him and which weren't. It's a little mercenary, I know, and I doubt it would work, but it's all I could come up with.

jsp wrote:: The idea I had was to put together some kind of donation to a charity of his choice if he'd agree to speak about which elements of the images were taken from photos Preiss gave him and which weren't. It's a little mercenary, I know, and I doubt it would work, but it's all I could come up with. Might work. I have an idea to start a kickstart to get some kind of plaque or inscribed stone in honor of Preiss and the hunt and then place them at the sites of the found casks. They could have the verse on them and the date they were found on them. Just an idea to honor one of the earliest arm chair treasure hunts. JJP might help us then.

I really like that idea rook.

Rook, that's an excellent idea. I was thinking it might also help to show him this site, and to show him the best that this community has come up with. There's been so much effort put into this hunt. I'm sure that we've hit on at least one good solution that's impossible to unearth because of the time factor. Maybe he can be convinced that the hunt really is over, and that the best thing for its memory is to go and find what's left of the casques — if possible — and to commemorate it in a way that honors what BP and he intended.

I hate it when people try to figure out ways to get clues from JJP or BP's wife. That totally dis-honors the spirit of the hunt. I sincerely hope it never happens. If you want to mark the locations of the found casques, Create a durable (weatherproof) version of the casque, perhaps a hard plastic cube, the size of the casque with a hunk of metal in it so it can be found easily with a metal detector, then get the 6 sides of the cube laser engraved with 1) an picture  of the casque, 2) the image, 3)the verse,  4) The finders name, 5)The solution, 6) The book info title, isbn, publisher author,etc. and a big message to say Please put me back!

maltedfalcon wrote:: I hate it when people try to figure out ways to get clues from JJP or BP's wife. That totally dis-honors the spirit of the hunt. I sincerely hope it never happens. If you want to mark the locations of the found casques, Create a durable (weatherproof) version of the casque, perhaps a hard plastic cube, the size of the casque with a hunk of metal in it so it can be found easily with a metal detector, then get the 6 sides of the cube laser engraved with 1) an picture  of the casque, 2) the image, 3)the verse,  4) The finders name, 5)The solution, 6) The book info title, isbn, publisher author,etc. and a big message to say Please put me back! I think something like that wouldn't stay buried long. Someone might take it. I'm thinking plaques on cement blocks. I saw a few of those in Herman park that would say something like "donated by x person". City parks might be more willing to let us place permanent memorials like those on their grounds. IMHO the "spirit" of the hunt as Preiss intended it was not to let this go on for ages. He clearly said if he passed the answers were to be revealed. This isn't just a normal treasure hunt anymore, it is a mystery and a little bit of history.

Normally I'd agree that it's not great to try to get answers in some way other than just solving the puzzles, but at this point I don't think many of the puzzles, as they are, are solvable. Some casques may still be there, but the landscape has changed so much that it's no longer possible to solve the puzzles the way they were designed. Preiss said that all you need for a casque is one verse and one image, and they will contain everything you need to find it. That is no longer true. I would not try to contact BP's widow for any of this, and I would not ask JJP for the solutions if he knows them. At this point I would only want to know what elements were based on photos. Given how much has changed over the years, and given that the only person who actually knows all the solutions is dead, I wouldn't feel too bad about evening the odds a bit. I totally understand if that's offsides to other people.

maltedfalcon wrote:: I hate it when people try to figure out ways to get clues from JJP or BP's wife. That totally dis-honors the spirit of the hunt. I sincerely hope it never happens. I would agree in the case of a single hunter trying to gain advantage over others and intended to claim a jewel as a prize.  In our case, however, we are asking as a GROUP with NO expectations of ever claiming the rewards.  In the spirit of the hunt, I see this as an alternative way of finding a casque, by being told, "Yes, you correctly solved this one."

catherwood wrote:: .  In the spirit of the hunt, I see this as an alternative way of finding a casque, by being told, "Yes, you correctly solved this one." except with the exception of Houston,  I don't believe anybody else  has gotten close enough to a solution to deserve that.

maltedfalcon wrote:: except with the exception of Houston,  I don't believe anybody else  has gotten close enough to a solution to deserve that. But didn't the book allow for a person to be told if they were correct, no matter how undeserved? Anybody could send in a description of the clues  used and a location it led to, and then send it in whether you had tried to dig or not. There was no stipulation that you had to have found or interpreted all the clues to win.

yes but before he died BP stated the only way to find out if you are correct now was to dig up a casque.

maltedfalcon wrote:: except with the exception of Houston,  I don't believe anybody else  has gotten close enough to a solution to deserve that. Very close solutions: 1. Houston. 2. The Fountain of Youth. 3. Milwaukee. It's very likely that one or more of the birches — and especially the proud, tall fifth — are gone (see ShadowRunner's solution where his proud, tall fifth led him to a spot near a tee on the golf course with dual red balls matching the juggling balls, but a big tree had been felled and mulched). 4. New Orleans. I throw this in here because with Katrina, it's very likely no one will ever find this one. There just is no way to tell how close anyone was with any of the possibilities in City Park or otherwise. 5. Charleston. I still contend that this one is, or was, at (I believe?) Fort Moutrie, just on the outside of the white geographic marker. There are so many confirmers for this one, including the sideways French flag, facing the "only standing member" palm tree. 6. Roanoke. We all mostly agree it's here, but so much has changed. The bench is gone, for example. That's 8 out of 12 hunts, either solved or close. Leaving Boston, Montreal (probably), New York, and San Francisco. Which have all met similar ends of "too much has changed." I don't think any more casques are going to be dug up.

I also agree with the said posts about an attempt of verification of any image (or site) confirmers. I would also be onboard with the idea of the plaques honoring BP. What a great way to preserve the hunt! I haven't been here long, but it is driving me as crazy as anyone (living this close to one) not being able to obtain something (or even try really) due to preservation and archaeological bounds. I don't want to tap out, but as bigmattyh said, the sites are narrowed down to a point and have likely been dug up, moved, landscaped over, broken into pieces, eroded or possibly washed away by the coastline.

very close doesn't cut it. San Francisco is very close  at least within 100 yards. A lot of them are close, Actually in the last 5 years I believe we have made more progress than in the previous 25 combined. I believe several casques at least are still to be found. Also if we find another it will go a huge way to firm up the methodology which in turn will lead to more progress. Sorry you feel so pessimistic about the hunt.  I on the other hand am quite hopeful I cant wait to actually go dig again. (however real life, keeps intruding, so I will be patient)

maltedfalcon wrote:: very close doesn't cut it. San Francisco is very close  at least within 100 yards. A lot of them are close, Actually in the last 5 years I believe we have made more progress than in the previous 25 combined. I believe several casques at least are still to be found. Also if we find another it will go a huge way to firm up the methodology which in turn will lead to more progress. Sorry you feel so pessimistic about the hunt.  I on the other hand am quite hopeful I cant wait to actually go dig again. (however real life, keeps intruding, so I will be patient) I wouldn't say I'm pessimistic. I'd love to see another one unearthed. But… This hunt just wasn't designed to withstand three decades of weather and redevelopment. I mean that exactly; it was a short-term hunt by design . BP expected all of these casques to be unearthed within a couple of years. He didn't constrain himself to markers and confirmers like stone and metal; he used trees and other structures that could be moved and torn down and redeveloped. This isn't like Treasure, where the box was buried out of the way in a National Park, where no one would ever likely unearth it accidentally. BP buried these things in the middle of changing urban landscapes, where people probably were tampering with his critical clues all the time, completely unaware of the fact that they were destroying key pieces of his puzzle. At some point, each one of these hunts turns into a snipe hunt. I think most of them already have.

So...despite all popular theory, an interlinking commonality between verse and visual elements may be characterized by the word "conductor". I assumed the many objects on the giant's hat were "ornaments", but they might better be thought of as gargoyles, since the hat is essentialy a castle.  Gargoyles are a form of ornamentation but their purpose is generally an architectural decoration with the purpose of channeling the flow of rainwater.  Many act as downspouts.  Downspouts are "conductors".  An unexpexted usage of the word "hush" may apply to a waterspout, aka "pipe down", such an elegant and simple conclusion. Too bad the area in Chicago has changed significantly.  I would love to see where any water spouts might have been.

Chicago hasn't changed that much in the area of grant park or the water tower. Actually Chicago seems to be the least changed of all the areas. it is easy to go exactly to where the casque was found and see almost all the clues. Been there, done that...

After scouring the forums I haven't found one instance of someone being absolutely sure about where the exact spot is for where this casque was found. Renovations have made it difficult to recreate the setting.  The fence post with the arch and a wall fixture described as an "old iron box" attached to the wall with conduit piping running down into the ground have been identified.  One version of the tree grid has been described as having a "missing tree in the corner" and that being the spot where the casque was found.  There's little hard evidence of exactly which objects in the setting were used to define a crystal clear digspot.  Byron seemed to have the opinion that it was pretty clear.  The finders had some difficulty and dug a 3x3x3 foot hole after being pointed to the right spot and then only found it just on the wall edge of their cubical excavation.  It's as if they were digging with a blindfold on.  What markers were they not paying attention too? When I read the verse I see three possible object clues: a fence, a fixture, and a "pipe down" (hush).  It's possible the fixture and the hush are the same object, but I noticed there's a light fixture just across from where the fence post on the otherside of the walkway by the edgeline of the treegrid.  Is it possible that we are confused as to which fixture we are to use?  Could be the light fixture (lamp post) or it could be the wall fixture (electric box). Or maybe "Central too" establishes that we dig right in the middle of that grassy lane between the light fixture and the fence, Just found this shot, I think these two objects are setup perfectly to connect a line.  Approximating the dig spot to be in the middle of that space must've been the difficult part.

I've been reviewing some of the image and verse connections lately and came across this, which I never realized the most apparent proximity of before... pretty hard to miss:

Hey, Egbert. Did BP tell you that M and B stood for Mozart and Beethoven, that he thought is stood for Mozart and Beethoven, or just that he remembered Mozart and Beethoven?

As far as I recall, he was just flipping through pages in the book, and while pointing out the Chicago verse, he said "M and B were Mozart and Beethoven."

Wasn't 10X13 referring to feet? I swear I read that from Preiss or was it that fellow whos handle was tenbythirteen..

10x13 referred to numbers of trees. Also, the corner of Hirudiniforme's orange and red dots (trees) should be moved across the path, closer to the fence and fixture.

forest_blight wrote:: ... the corner of Hirudiniforme's orange and red dots (trees) should be moved across the path, closer to the fence and fixture. ... not my dots.

I may have figured out the insight provided by the LotJ for this location.  Brilliant as eyes helps us see the light post and cold morning green helps us think of a "field" as in an electric or magnetic field, which relates to something that involves two poles.  The large diameter fence post and the light post would fit that analogy.

Was there ever a mention of the Chicago key? What did it look like?

rookhunter wrote:: Was there ever a mention of the Chicago key? What did it look like? he is holding the key in this photo. it matches the colour photos of the treasure in the book on page 33, 34 and repeated again on page 47.

arent these the guys that had to ask for help, because the 10x13 tree clue was gone if you read the pg thats posted , it says the date on the paper is 8/9/83, book was released in 81/82 and the tree clue was gone by august 83 how many clues are gone now 30+ yrs later

Nobody knows for sure why they had trouble finding the exact spot.  I dont think a missing tree was the problem.

ok its been a long time memory blinks after awhile i went back and found this,i had forgot Preiss had sent a photo of area hxxp://www.quest4treasure.co.uk/forum/i ... opic=772.0

Unknown: (cont'd from above) Andy and I absorbed a lot of information that B.Preiss had told us about The Secret.  I hope I can recall all of it for you here: 1.  The Chicago casque was found by 2 young stockbrokers, who lived in Chicago, and had recognized some of the sites and verse references right away.  However, at the time, there was some type of renovation occurring, in which a large marble or concrete object had been placed over the burial site.  So, they took a picture of it, and sent it to B.Preiss, who acknowledged that as soon as the renovation was finished, the treasure was theirs.  He doesn't recall meeting them, doesn't have a copy of any newspaper article, but does recall that an article was run in one of the major Chicago newspapers at the time.  Flipping through the book, B.Preiss told us that "M and B" stand for Mozart and Beethoven. "Ten by thirteen" refers to feet. "Brush" refers to the Art Museum. I don't want to beat a dead horse but I think it's important we get it right. This is directly from the Cleveland thread and Egbert's post: If it's not trees, how did they figure out 10x13? "Fifteen rows down..In the center of twenty one" might refer to feet as well.

rookhunter, you might be on to something. I hadn't paid attention to those details before.  I've been bothered by the intention behind using the word Hush.  I thought it might be a keen hint that both tells someone to be quiet, but also represents a phrase like "pipe down!", but then I wasn't certain what vertical piping in the area would be used to pinpoint the spot.  You're mention of the 10x13 as a feet measure gave me an idea to look more closely and I discovered a scenario that might work.  I spotted a manhole cover and a drain cover that roughly make a line in the direction of that fence post in the archway.  What if I have the right idea and I just need to tweak Hush to mean "put a lid on it!"?  Using the two light posts above the wall and the two lid covers, we could have some nice intersecting lines, Maybe its the work of a Foul Sewer Ogre playing tiddlywinks with manhole covers...(p154)

Litany of the Jewels: Brilliant as eyes of Celtic folk, Cold morning green, their Emerald Brilliant (something that shines)  + eyes (plural of eye) = pair of light posts The historical average low temperatures in Chicago for the coldest months, Dec through February, are in the 20's. Cold morning (in the 20's) + green (something green) = $20 bill = Andrew Jackson The cask was found along E. Jackson Drive.

I've been thinking more on the verse approach where it plays with start letter names/words, M B R L Mozart/Beethoven/Roosevelt and Lincoln seem absolutely certain as their meaning. Why does Preiss use only the M B R and not the L in his final lines with Music/Brush/Rumble and Hush?  Why the H word?  We might look at this as a situation where we expect to find an L word, but this might also be a subtle way of bringing attention to both the L and H for their use in a final step in the puzzle.  I've recently established the idea of forming two intersecting lines using a pair of bridge lamps and a pair of manholes on the sidewalk and street to point to the spot on the grounds in the park.  Lights and Holes.  L and H.

I'm thinking the Litany of the Jewels lines for Chicago might echo the hint of lights/holes: "brilliant as eyes" = lights, and "cold morning green" = holes (golf)

I'm currently standing on the spot the treasure was dug... anybody want any pics?

Four21thrasher, if would be great if you would give us your on-site assessment of how you think the casque was intended to be found.  I've proposed a couple ideas that dont seem to be previously dscussed.  Maybe you would be so kind as to help rule something out.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/56olg080nph0cel/6mna7oj4PK The videos should prove useful. I spent 9 hours there yesterday and have additional thoughts, but I am unfortunately in meetings here now until I leave. Will get back with more around sunday.

It seems there are two fixtures? So was it found in front of the one in photo 2 or the one in photo 11?

There are actually many... that one was layin down so i picked it off the ground and layed it up. It was south of lincoln.

I'm trying to decide which is best attributed to the earring shape.  Manhole cover or birdseye view of the fountain?  Or something else? Hirudiniforme, RE: you're vid, are you suggesting that the 2008 inspection plate on the bridge lamp means there were no lamps installed previously?

the fountain is MASSIVE and known citywide. When I caught the blue line downtown and asked for directions to Grant Park, everyone asked i I was going to see the fountain. It's the fountain. And... those posts and that cover were not there. I cannot find that any posts were, but those posts in particular were installed in 2008, not inspected.

Thanks!

hxxp://midwest.construction.com/midwest ... bridge.asp I didn't realize the whole damn thing was demolished and rebuilt.  The article, if I'm reading it correctly, says it was a reconstruction and kept the original architecture.  I'd like to think the lights and the manholes were located as they are now.

So here's an interesting thought on: Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. Perhaps "seek the sounds" refers to the alliteration of the "s" throughout  Verse 12, and "Hush" means "silent." Have you ever heard someone pronounce Illinois as Illi-noise ? So, it might be a clue to silence (no "noise"), a silent "s," and the state. Alternatively, "seek the sounds of rumble" might refer to R, M, B, and L (i.e., "seek out what these stand for). After all, the letters by themselves are not words, rather sounds.

Nickname of Chicago is "the city of big shoulders," taken from the 5th line of a poem of Sandburg's entitled "Chicago": "Hog Butcher for the World Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat, Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler. Stormy, Husky, Brawling, City of the Big Shoulders." He won a Pulitzer for the peom as well as for his biography of Lincoln, which was larger than all of Shakespeare's works (he spent 30 years researching). The nickname also seems to be an inspiration in the image build (i.e., a city on what must be broad shoulders). And the profile of Lincoln is left (our left), beyond the big shoulders of the goblin in the image. Additionally, the Lincoln statue in Grant Park is named "Abraham Lincoln: Head of State." The portrayal of Illinois in Image 5 is just as close of a profile of Lincoln (notice the chin and lips) as the profile in Image 1 (Lincoln Park), or near the quality. What makes that tempting for me is that Verse 5 points out "L sits" and the statue is secondarily known as "Sitting Lincoln." Wrap this all together by noting that the casque is beyond his "shoulder," tying back into the city's nickname. My point is that we have a city easily portrayed through "the bulls," the "C" for bears, the lat/long, and perhaps the "windy" city. Isn't it overkill to place this much symbolism and word play in the verse and image? Why would it be necessary? Not discussed (I perceive this irrelevant): "Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler" - Fair Folks' treasure holder - near railroad "Stormy, husky, brawling" - rumble, hush, brush As a result of the Lincoln work, Sandburg was the first private citizen (and only to date) to deliver an address before a joint session of Congress (on February 12, 1959, the 150th anniversary of Lincoln's birth).

I think I got this finally. The end of 10 by 13 is a rough rectangle starting at the corner entrance and stretching diagonally south west towards the fence post.  It is a rough estimation of walking paces or 1 meter steps as seen estimated by the wikimapia distance tool on the above satellite image.  Recognizing the entrance point is based on the manhole cover which is on the street (not the one on the sidewalk), and is shaped like a spider web pattern and has the closest similarity to the large earring in the image.  The pacing is a rough estimate to the dig point which is an interesting spot because it has a nice set of intersecting lines.

Thanks for the video tour, Hirudiniforme -- very nice to "be" there again. The last time I was there, the bridge area was being repaired. Before that, in 2006, it looked like this: My impression is that extremely few of the trees that are there now were around in ~1981. There could very well have been 10 x 13 rows of the kind of large tree you saw at the end of your walk (tree #15).

So, I was strolling around Chicago the other day on a family trip (but by myself for the moment) and happened to spy this only a couple of blocks from the treasure ground: It's not an exact match, but pretty close? It is the marquee on the Target at 1 S. State Street. Here is the location, and I placed a "target" where the treasure was found: You can read about the building, and see a better picture of the marquee, here: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson,_Pirie,_Scott_and_Company_Building edit: fixed link

That's a significant find Forest. Good job! This hunt doesn't stop intriguing me.

OK, I'll buy that. Nice find Forest.

I always thought it was just an overhead image of Buckingham fountain with the water on.

I don't see the resemblance, malt:

The water is off in this picture. if the fountains are on the view from above is a rounded circle with intersecting lines. but that was just my impression.

Hirudiniforme wrote:: So here's an interesting thought on: Seek the sounds Of rumble Brush and music Hush. Perhaps "seek the sounds" refers to the alliteration of the "s" throughout  Verse 12, and "Hush" means "silent." Have you ever heard someone pronounce Illinois as Illi-noise ? So, it might be a clue to silence (no "noise"), a silent "s," and the state. Alternatively, "seek the sounds of rumble" might refer to R, M, B, and L (i.e., "seek out what these stand for). After all, the letters by themselves are not words, rather sounds. I think this is completely right. Its a good lead to how these Celtic Fair Folk are playing with this particular setting. I think the word that closely resembles CELTIC in sound is ELECT, which serves the site of Grant and includes Lincoln and Roosevelt, all Presidents ELECT. I think the LotJ gives us a key insight. Brilliant as eyes, Celtic emerald, cold morning green. Cold / Morning / Green, all may refer to the quality of a not looking well. Its a strange way to connect us to the word COMPLEXION. A COMPLEX ION is a positive charged metal ion combined with a molecule. Copper amine complex is a good example, giving a brilliant blue color.

ELECTION rhymes with COMPLEXION.

421 I did see a T-shirt today that said "Keep that Illinoise down, we're trying to Wisconsintrate"

erexere wrote:: M and B are Mozart and Beethoven Set in stone = ?, yes, the composers names are in the stone facade, but what if there's more purpose to Preiss' choice than just some random detail in the setting? I'll get back to this. This is the Celtic prize. CELTIC ... "C ILECT" = "see" + "elect". R is for Roosevelt , L is for Lincoln , Grant Park, near the Van Buren train stop, at East Jackson Drive... Why so many presidents? Who is the "treasure holder"? What is meant by 10 by 13? 10 + 13 = 23 23rd letter of alphabet is W W is the element Tungsten: tung means "heavy", sten means "stone" (swedish). Tungsten is the conductor in light bulbs. Many clues in the Chicago puzzle point to things which involve conducting: music, trains, ornamental lightning rods on the rooftops of the giant's hat. The LotJ gives us a great clue: Brilliant as eyes, Celtic emerald, cold morning green. Electric lamps are brilliant. Also, cold morning's could be in the twenties...Andrew Jackson on the 20 dollar bill... Maybe this embodies the nature of this Celtic puzzle: it's about power (electricity) and money. Tungsten is an interesting case, since it's the only element to be successfully patented. It's 1913 patent holder? Patent's are about money. We have another president name: William Coolidge . Maybe Coolidge is also a reason why Preiss made the word choice "cold morning". I believe my graphic illustration in the previous post is more than speculation. I think it provides evidence beyond mere coincidence. My figures are based on an aerial view and map tool that shows the lamps going east to west are spread 20 meters apart. Those lamps leading south along that pathway towards the Lincoln statue are 18 meters apart. The shoulder of the bridgeway has a number of parapets and most of them have additional lamps. There are two maps nearest the train wall just north of the characteristic fence post and they are separated by 5 meters. If you look at the plot you'll see that the distance of 13 meters is traveled between the wall and the fence post. It's 20 meters west to the first lamp in the park. Walking only 10 meters puts you in an interesting position that's directly south of the last parapet on the end of the bridge wall. This parapet is a vacant spot where a lamp could be placed, but it wouldn't really fit with the overall symmetry of all the east-west lamps. I believe with 100% "I'd stake my life on it" confidence that this is the correct dig spot.

I'm looking at your map, and reading your explanation, but I just cant place the map in the real world. I've been to the site so I am very familiar with it. On your map which way is north/south ? what streets are represented with the grey? What are the two orange circles at the top? where is michigan ave? where are the tracks?

but we know from the people who were there the hole was dug just about to the right of the number 13...

I don't trust the accuracy of the Chicago finder's report. It was a long time ago. Minor details have altered over time. They dug a lot of places and when they found the casque they were full of excitement and no longer were concerned with achieving a complete understanding of how the puzzle worked. I'm open to considering the spot by I think you're indicating and switching my start point in this final setting to pedestal like parapet, walking 13 paces south to the spot where you're between a fence and fixture, then walking 10 paces towards the fence.

My main point is that I'm determined to see the tungsten conducting lamp lights as the determining factor rather than some tree grid. If I were the first digger using that approach I'd probably dig a few holes before settling on the right orientation.

Looking south down the path of Grant Park there may have been a clear line of view between the trees of Illinois Central Terminal before it was demolished and many buildings were built to obscure that position. I think it was partially or entirely demolished before 1982. It was closed in 1972. Old post cards or other historic references may have made it a popular and lasting iconic image in many peoples memory. Maybe some similarity to this hat:

I'd like to poll people on their take on what the final line of verse means. Hush. 1) look for a quiet place 2) be quiet as you discretely dig 3) a hint for a verticle pipe as a precision indicator, "pipe down" or "hush" 4) a hint for locating a park lamp for a precision indicator. "Hold your tongue", Tung-sten

2

5. There appear to be several libraries nearby, including the Chicago Public Library.

I like that library connection.

Actually, I was thinking "Library" when I wrote option 1. 5 works too. Thanks for the input. I had another notion, since Andrew Jackson street might be linked to the idea of a $20 dollar bill, then it could be that the word "hush" is a "type of money" as in "hush money". I might be squeezing more than is reasonable out of these incidentals.

forest_blight wrote:: That's what I thought, too, until someone pointed this out: It occurred to me that the word "Hush" as in the act of putting a finger over the mouth or lips might be the inspiration from this fence post and halo. The fence runs along the LIP of the railway edge. The halo is shaped like a castle gate, an opening like a cave mouth. The single vertical post at its center is quite analogous to putting a finger over your mouth and hushing. I wonder if similar associations may be drawn from each of the last lines of verse as some added implication. Considering Milwaukee, I've thought "the treasure waits" could imply the role of a waiter who serves tables and takes orders. The application fits my theory if the cask is buried near a soldier or leader such as Kosciuszko's statue, since he is one who gives orders.

Has anyone ever measured this particular path to the dig spot? Some sources say the 10x13 had something to do with foot-measure, some sources say it has to do with a tree grid. Maybe it's both, idk, seems like a lot of people just saying stuff that they remember Preiss had said. Was the reason he told the Chicago finders to go back and count the trees his way of suggesting they should verify whether their idea was right or wrong rather than an admission that the trees grid was critical? If you start your measuring as close to a spot between the fence and fixture, measure by 10 feet, then by 13, I think the spot would look like this,

your scale is a bit off, the cement divider at the top of the wall is called a jersey barrier and are usually 32 inches tall which makes your 10 feet way out of scale. putting your proposed dig location nowhere near where the actual spot was.

Actually, my "proposed" location is based off of Eric's recollection when he dug the hole with Bob and Dave. This is just the same spot from a different angle. The picture is hosted by forrest_blight in the chicago_solve.pdf at kspot.org. Im proposing an interpretation of events, and it should be possible to verify the position of the green box fixture qnd length of the cyclone fence segment to the vertical pipe point. Is that fixture approximately 3 feet from the fence? It looks like it to me based on the relative size of the fence lattice.

erexere wrote:: Actually, my "proposed" location is based off of Eric's recollection when he dug the hole with Bob and Dave. This is just the same spot from a different angle. The picture is hosted by forrest_blight in the chicago_solve.pdf at kspot.org. Im proposing an interpretation of events, and it should be possible to verify the position of the green box fixture qnd length of the cyclone fence segment to the vertical pipe point. Is that fixture approximately 3 feet from the fence? It looks like it to me based on the relative size of the fence lattice. Its not the spot that is off, it's your scale of measurement. yes if you step out that far and over that far you get to the dig spot. my point is thats not 10x13 feet if you actually used 10x13 feet you would be no where near the dig spot.

Well. That sucks, because Egbert said 10x13 had to do with feet. Question is how does that look? Where do you start the count if not at the immediate spot between the fence and fixture at the corner of the park? What do you propose based on the evidence and suporting statements?

So I checked a couple things. First, that's a 4' high section of fence. Using Gimp to measure the height in the picture returns a value of 92 pixels. The length measures 274 pixels. If 92 pixels are 4 feet, then 274 pixels at the same relative position in the photo = (4x274/92) = 11.91 feet. Apparently my scale isn't off by much at all. Perhaps both Egbert correctly remembers what Preiss said. Perhaps Eric's recollection of the spot relative to the fence and wall is also pretty close, though estimation of measure from a photo isn't all that accurate. Perhaps someone visiting the site someday can bring a tape measure along and verify the accuracy of their reports and my proposal.

erexere wrote:: So I checked a couple things. First, that's a 4' high section of fence. how did you get that value? you could be totally correct, but then that means those jersey barriers are 4' tall also. most likely though they are the standard barrier size. Just because the tall ones are noticeably different shaped. I note the fence slopes downward to the wall but not much so most likely that fence is 3 feet tall.

I got the 4ft value by counting the vertical links in the fence and comparing that to the standard size of linking in three different fences. I counted 13 links in 2 cases and 12 links in the the last, but that one had a one link gap on along the bottom edge. Im confident its a 4ft fence, but if someone could measure it to be sure that would be awesome. Maltedfalcon, btw, I'm greatly appreciating your feedback. If we ever hammer out some kind of really strong evidence there's a geometric motif then it might be a real help the next time someone seriously considers a dig in any of the other puzzles. Finding a precision type method is sooo much better than a hail mary dig-de-force.

Unknown: Well. That sucks, because Egbert said 10x13 had to do with feet. Unknown: What do you propose based on the evidence and suporting statements? Seems strange that Preiss would tell Egbert one thing and the people actually doing the digging another. Or it would if there wasn't ample evidence that Preiss did this with just about everyone who asked him about the puzzle except the Chicago group. Common sense suggests that if finding the casque was simply a matter of measuring 10' off the fence and 13' off the wall (or vice versa), that's what Preiss would have told the Chicago group instead of telling them to go back and count the trees. And would have obviated the need for him to send them the picture of the dig site. The same thing I have been saying for years. Put no stock in anything that Preiss said, or might have said. And trust in your ability to decipher the clues contained in the book to solve a puzzle, find a dig spot, and uncover a casque.

According to the Chicago finders reports, Preiss heard their review of their work to solve the puzzle and asked them what they thought of the meaning of 10 x 13. Bob told him abou the trees and how they didn't add up. Preiss then chuckled. If the trees were right, why would he find it humorous? Seems more humorous that someone would mistake a large plot of trees for a direct and uncomplicated 10x13 feet. The news piece mentioned how Priess couldn't understand why they had so much trouble finding the exact spot. They never evolved their methods beyond looking at trees and guessing at some implied spatial relationship. It's humorous that the use of a tape measure might've made their job a lot easier, though I have to sympathize, because 10 x 13 is wide open to interpretation without a clear indication of foot-measure. Perhaps you're right Erpobdelliforme. It all seems strange. Retrospection aside, Cleveland and Chicago, whether created to be simple or not, were actually a huge challenge in many ways. How humorous that we are still chipping away at this old hunt and have nothing much to show for it.

Unknown: How humorous that we are still chipping away at this old hunt and have nothing much to show for it. Eric, With all due respect, you make it a habit of selectively interpreting those things that you believe bolster your case and ignoring the rest, and you are doing it again here IMO. Preiss might have chuckled, and he might have laughed out loud. But what he also did, according to the same source, is tell the Chicago group to go back and count the trees, and to adjust for any that may have been missing (emphasis mine). Now, in any other case, I wouldn't give that any more credence than anything else Preiss might have said. But with the Chicago group, we know that he was trying to help them, and by their own admission "Without the information made avail (sic) to us the site would of never been found due to the change in the count of the trees." , they would not have found the casque. Indeed...

Sorry, thats not the case. Im not being selective as you say. See, we can only take their word for it. Did he laugh out loud or not? Why would he laugh? Why do you have a problem with me asking a simple question? The only argument im making is that we dont really know Preiss' intention beind telling them to look at the trees again. They suggested the trees in answer to his query. His chuckle is ambiguous. Maybe you think a chucle is mea ingless and unimportant. Maybe its a response to an unexpected answer. Telling them to go back and count the trees to be sure is in no way an admission that the 10x13 = trees. It could be the trees, or it could be a case of "go back and check your work." They were already in the right general area. Telling them to spend more time checking their work there seems like a natural response, giving the team of three minds the opportunity work out the final solve. Clearly, Preiss singled out the one missing detail in their solve and asked what the thought of 10x13. If they were right about the trees, he couldve said so, but telling them to go back, count, make adjustments is not the same as saying "well, the trees are the right idea. Go back and check because thats how I picked the location."

Something I never noticed until now, while looking up the word "Celt", I see an entry for the common noun form, where "celt" is a type of chisel tool used for stonework. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt_%28tool%29 Perhaps the existence of this type of tool is partly why Preiss opened with the line "where M and B are set in stone".

erexere wrote:: Something I never noticed until now, while looking up the word "Celt", I see an entry for the common noun form, where "celt" is a type of chisel tool used for stonework. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt_%28tool%29 Perhaps the existence of this type of tool is partly why Preiss opened with the line "where M and B are set in stone". Interestingly enough, your link, as well as all additional research, does not support the statement that a "celt" is a type of chisel tool used for stonework. Rather, it is a tool made of stone and used for hoeing, which seems like what you are doing for support.

Your humor continues to be very stale. Why dont you make the choice to actively participate rather than act pathetic. We know you are capable. Perhaps you could offer an explanation on why you think the stone "chisel" is interesting as it pertains to the puzzle which might not be coincidence with the first line of verse?

erexere wrote:: Your humor continues to be very stale. Why dont you make the choice to actively participate rather than act pathetic. We know you are capable. Perhaps you could offer an explanation on why you think the stone "chisel" is interesting as it pertains to the puzzle which might not be coincidence with the first line of verse? Per your link, " A 'Celt' was thus wrongly assumed to be a type of ancient chisel. " And, I like my humor, and I am actively participating in the hunt. Mostly on my own, but here and there I try to help others by NOT letting them be misdirected by your nonsense. And, just to clarify for you... I find the stone (not a) chisel quite un interesting, as it has no relation to the first line of the verse, or any other line in any verse for that matter.

My link to the Wikipedia article shouldn't be taken as absolute. Various definition sources do say "ancient chisel" and thus there is a reason for the explanation that it was wrongly assumed to be one. The point is that it is a tool, specifically an edged stone set/tethered to a wood extension. It's similar to other ancient tools or weapons like a stone axe or an arrow. You find it uninteresting because maybe you lack the understanding that this hunt requires. Until you prove otherwise, you are someone who chooses to participate alone as you say, but only publically act like a fool. You constantly deride my attempts to pull things together. I am not trying to mislead anyone. I'm offering options for mindful consideration. I'm participating in the spirit of the hunt and you're doing something completely contrary to progress when you act as you do.

erexere wrote:: I'm offering options for mindful consideration...

Yeah, you are actually a grown up in real life. On the internet, you act much different than we would assume for an adult. As for the puzzles, their methodology, of which you nor I are experts, we must continue to consider options if we are to be realistic. Chicago's poem has lots of interesting points to consider that nobody seems to be willing to consider. I think people are generally lazy thinkers and dont allow for the fact that the finders nor Egbert learned all that was to be confirmed from Preiss. The celt is a tool. Its practical to consider that if Preiss researched the Celts for the Celtic fairfolk puzzle, then he may have discovered the common noun word also applied to a hand tool. Interestingly, the poem mentions a brush, another type of tool. I think its reasonabke to wonder if there is a connection, whereas you are quick to reject it without much of an explanation. I can appreciate that you are uninterested or that you have a different opinion, but that you are capable of offering your own explanation and you choose not to in lieu of humor, you make yourself out to be unhelpful to the purpose of these forums. You should share your work if you wish to contribute. You should have some pride and stop hiding behind a veil of secrecy or fear or whatever it is that keeps you from working with others.

erexere wrote:: You find it uninteresting because maybe you lack the understanding that this hunt requires.

Preiss, not having the benefit of whatever sources were used by Wikipedia, mightve assumed the "ancient chisel" definition. If so, the letters M and B being set in stone could ba clue to think of a chisel, which might lead a person to connect verse 12 with the Celtic puzzle by way of the "celt". Thats the direction I was going when I referenced the link. Another interesting part of the puzzle, something which may have been mentioned already is the reoccurring reference to the letter L. L for Lincoln. The word "left" starts with an L. The raised railway in Chicago is referred to as the "EL". The result of 10 by 13 feet is basically a letter L path. I think effort to connect many things is part of Preiss' method to steer people in a specific direction. Isnt the celt tool also in the shape of an L?

erexere wrote:: Another interesting part of the puzzle, something which may have been mentioned already is the reoccurring reference to the letter L.

Like others in this thread, I've been trying to find a solution of this enigma that would answer some yet unanswered questions. Like, why did they almost miss the treasure while BP almost told them where to make the hole? Why did BP choose trees as landmarks when trees can easily die (especially in town)? Why M&B would stand for Mozart and Beethoven instead of Man and Best and how is that an important clue for solving the puzzle? What's the use of the two earring-like circles in the picture? So I've come to a theory that I will now submit to your appreciation. There are a few things that might benefit from confirmations from people in Chicago (I leave in France!). The first thing is the earring-like circle on the right of the picture (it's not an earring since it's not actually hanging from the ear). I know it's an exact match to the corniche of the Sullivan Center, but I don't see the point in hinting at the Sullivan Center. On the other hand, a good match for this pattern can be seen directly on the Symphony Hall, just above the names Mozart and Beethoven, at the center of the window railings. It's hard to find good pictures on the internet so here are a few not-too-bad ones: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... hicago.JPG https://c8.alamy.com/comp/AMR66A/exteri ... AMR66A.jpg hxxp://www.davidstaub.com/wp-content/up ... bs-cso.jpg (for this one, the pattern is half cut by the top border of the picture, but it's the most detailed picture I could find). So, if this interpretation of this pattern is right, two things should be noticed: First, in the picture, the pattern is close to the leprechaun's ear, and the ear can obviously be connected to the Symphony Hall. Second, the pattern is also close to the fairy representing the Lake Michigan statue. And this statue is right in front of the Symphony Hall. So we have some spatial coherence in the symbols, here. Next, I think the two statues represented in the picture give hints if you take into account the position from which you see them. For the Lake Michigan statue, you would be next to the wall of the Art Institute, looking south. Therefore, looking in the direction of the Bowman. To see the Symphony Hall, you would need to turn your head on your right and look aver your right shoulder. For the Bowman statue, you would need to be in East Ida B. Wells Drive. You would see in front of you the Roosevelt University ("R is known") through Congress Drive. Looking over your right shoulder, you would see the Lincoln Statue. And the treasure holder over his shoulder, on the left, which means over his right shoulder. So, how does this help? Well, this highlights two important buildings: the Roosevelt University associated to the letter R, and the Symphony Hall associated to the letters M and B. Now, these letters appear again in the last lines of the verse, in reversed order : R umble first, then B rush and M usic together. My idea is that from the treasure spot, you would have two noticeable alignments with these positions (in addition to the tree grid). More precisely, you would see the Roosevelt university through the fence. Between the two, there would be Congress Drive and the Von Buren station. Obviously, if the castle in the picture represents the Central Station, we have the idea that the fence is superimposed with a station. And both can be linked to the R of Rumble and the R9 trains. This alignment seems to be compatible with the picture on page 16 in this document: hxxp://kspot.org/trove/chicago_solve.pdf For the second alignment, it would align the Symphony Hall and the "fixture" (displayed page 17 in the document I just linked). There would be three obstacles to this alignment: 1/ trees. Probably not a big deal in winter, however (the description of the Emerald in the LoJ talks about a "cold morning"). 2/ The wall of the bridge on Jackson Drive behind the fixture. From the pictures below, it seems low enough so that one can see over it from the casque location. Especially if we remove the concrete blocks: they were probably not there in 83 and it would allow to look through the railings behind them (seeing the railings of the windows of the Symphony Hall through the railing of the bridge would be another symbolic association like the one with the fence and station). 3/ The wall and roof of the Art Institute. From the picture below, I doubt we could see the Symphony Hall over the roof of the Art Institute. The Symphony Hall would be too low, especially if we want to see the windows of the second floor. But we could see them on the left of the wall of the Art Institute. If that holds true, we would have an alignment that involves Music (the Symphony Hall) and Brush (the Art Institute). Moreover, it's possible that this alignment only allows to see the names Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, so we only see the M and Bs and stop after M and B. Which would provide an explanation of the "Hush", since we silence the two other composers by hiding them behind the wall of the Art Institute. I cannot test that without being on-site and knowing the exact location of the casque, but on a map it seems plausible. hxxp://kspot.org/trove/fixture1.jpg hxxp://kspot.org/trove/chi1.jpg Now, here is a point which convince me less: the last symbol, the one on the left "earring", could represent these two alignments (the two slanted lines), the top horizontal bar representing the train lines, and the curved line at the bottom representing the Michigan Avenue. What it does not explain, however, is why the Michigan Avenue is not represented as a straight line, and why it's in a circle. So that was my probably-impossible-to-confirm theory about the Chicago casque. I honestly find it much more elegant and convincing than what is usually assumed to be the solution. But, well, it might as well be completely wrong .

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I can't address everything in your post, but I think the Sullivan Center instance of this design is a better match because it and the painting contain more small details in common than the balcony. But the balcony does have proximity in its favor. Also, it has been written that BP did not expect the treasure hunt to take very long, so it was reasonable for him to use trees in his riddles. Indeed, most of the trees were still there when the Chicago casque was found, even if most are gone now, 35 years later. M&B cannot be "man and beast" because that was not the name of the sculpture. It was assumed by the casque finders. They were wrong about this, but it turned out not to matter. The Japanese book confirms that M&B represent the names of famous composers.

forest_blight wrote:: Thank you for your thoughts on this. I can't address everything in your post, but I think the Sullivan Center instance of this design is a better match because it and the painting contain more small details in common than the balcony. But the balcony does have proximity in its favor. forest_blight wrote:: Also, it has been written that BP did not expect the treasure hunt to take very long, so it was reasonable for him to use trees in his riddles. Indeed, most of the trees were still there when the Chicago casque was found, even if most are gone now, 35 years later. I totally agree with the fact that the Sullivan Center is a better visual match. But the balcony has another thing in its favor: it was still there when the hunt started, while the Sullivan Center corniche had been removed long ago. As for the pattern remaining at the entrance of the Sullivan Center, it's not a better visual match than the one on the Symphony Hall. That said, there seems to be a theme of things that have been removed in that casque: the Central Station and at least one tree, so why not a few stones in a building? Also, the two options don't have to be exclusive: Sullivan made the Roosevelt University building and might also be relevant for that matter. From what I understood, the casque was buried at a spot where a tree was missing. If I were to use such a spot for a treasure hunt, my main concern would not be that the other trees around get removed or replaced or whatever would affect the alignment of trees. This would only make the search harder, and I could still help people finding the treasure with additional hints. My main concern would rather be that a new tree would be planted where I buried the treasure in replacement of the missing one. The risk seems greater to me that such an operation would either to a) the treasure being discovered by accident, b) the treasure being destroyed or removed and nobody notices, c) the treasure is made irreversibly un-findable because a tree has been planted over it. So... I don't know what ideas BP had with trees, but it seems obvious to me that by hiding the treasure where a tree was missing, he was taking a huge risk, even in the short time he thought was needed to find the casque. Did he really took that risk? Was the casque really where the tree was missing or was it a little offset? Was there additional and more perennial clues to find the casque than just the trees, as I suggest? We will probably never know. But I can't help thinking that the guys who found this casque made a big hole and only found the casque on the side of the hole, as if the casque was slightly offset compared to its theoretical position at the crossing of the two lines of trees.

chevechercher wrote:: So... I don't know what ideas BP had with trees, but it seems obvious to me that by hiding the treasure where a tree was missing, he was taking a huge risk, even in the short time he thought was needed to find the casque. did BP ever confirm the trees were the clues? utter with a chuckle = confirm?

Spiritr wrote:: did BP ever confirm the trees were the clues? utter with a chuckle = confirm? From the PDF made by one of the guys who found the casque (sorry, I don't remember his name on Q4T): " Bob relayed everything that we did.. and at the end Mr. Preiss asked what we thought of 10 x 13 again.. Bob told him about counting the trees. but that the numbers didn't add up to 10 in one row running east to west and 13 running in another north to south. Mr. Preiss chuckled if I remember the story rite from Bob, and suggested that we go back out and recount the trees, and to adjust for any that may have been missing.. " (emphasis is mine). So he somehow confirmed that the trees where involved, but we don't know if that was supposed to be the last step in the solution or not. But don't get me wrong: I think the trees are involved. But only to locate an area a few feet of radius, with the B+M & R alignments giving the exact location in this area (which was not absolutely necessary, if you were ready to make a hole as big as this area — and it seems safe to assume that BP would believe these guys were ready to make a big hole).

chevechercher wrote:: So he somehow confirmed that the trees where involved, but we don't know if that was supposed to be the last step in the solution or not. But don't get me wrong: I think the trees are involved. But only to locate an area a few feet of radius, with the B+M & R alignments giving the exact location in this area (which was not absolutely necessary, if you were ready to make a hole as big as this area — and it seems safe to assume that BP would believe these guys were ready to make a big hole). you do know that " The end of ten by thirteen " was "feet" and not "trees" right?

Spiritr wrote:: you do know that " The end of ten by thirteen " was "feet" and not "trees" right? Ummm.....

maltedfalcon wrote:: Ummm..... Correct.

Spiritr wrote:: you do know that " The end of ten by thirteen " was "feet" and not "trees" right? You do know that it's only an interpretation of what somebody said BP would have said years ago, right? Sorry, but I prefer to stick to the elements contained in the verse and picture. And I can't see how an interpretation of 10x13 as feet could explain the words "the end of". Now, it's possible that the clue had a double meaning, hinting at the same time at the end of the rows of trees to give an approximate position, and at the distance in feet from the wall and fence to give a more precise location. We will probably never know the exact position anyway, so none of these theories can be proven false. However, we can investigate to find if both theories give the same result. At 10 feet from the wall and 13 feet from the fence (your theory if I understand well), would we see the Roosevelt University through the fence and the Symphony Hall on the left of the Art Institute as I suggest in my theory?

Someone once suggested 10x13 = 130 degrees. This idea might qualify if the above image is accurate, because 10x13 feet doesnt make sense, 10x13 trees is dubious, and 130 degrees actually seems very close to what you might have for a vector that aims to the very corner of the park to the casque. When Byron said "its feet", he could've been talking about any vertical pile supporting a bridge work. Think architecturally and you have such terms as bridge feet, piers, and spans. Note that the arch shape or halo of the indicative fence post may be all of those things combined. Admittedly it's an process, but something I would be willing to consider among the questionable options.

erexere wrote:: Someone once suggested 10x13 = 130 degrees. how then would you define the end of 130 degrees and it was suggested as from Lincoln, at least that had to end a the fence. but going the other way nothing is there to stop you from heading back to lincoln

Other than stopping at a point that lines up with the fence halo/post, I'm not sure.

erexere wrote:: Other than stopping at a point that lines up with the fence halo/post, I'm not sure. well if you lined up with the fixture you would be way short....

I have less confidence in this puzzle for not having been tonthe site in person. The inconsistencies in exactly where thencasque was placed fuel some of the confusion as well. I really like the aerial and appreciate 421thrasher's input for verifying the measurements. There are two very particular shapes on the painting and both are drawn left of the center vertical axis. I believe the idea to "line up" with fence and fixture means to take those background elements into account when standing at the site. Facing north towards Jackson, the fixture will be somewhat more to the left than the fence halo is left innthe upper background when facing west. This position might be best described as the consequence of trying to line up with the trees in line. The numeric factor of just one or both axis if the trees could've been the basis for determining the most ideal factors for 130 degrees. I think degrees is much more significant than anyone knew. Things to consider: 1) image 5 displays the emerald 2) litany of the jewels describes Celtic emerald as the bright eyes, cold morning green. 3) emerald is the May birthstone 4) cold mornings or the average low temperature for Chicago in the month of May are about 20 degrees 5) the facial profile of image 5 looks remarkably like Ulysses S. Grant, he is featured on the $50 bill. 6) Andrew Jackson is featured on the $20 bill When I ponder all of these items along with the idea that the Chicago water tower could be acting as an example of a vertical pipe with varying heights of water, that is something comparable to a common thermometer, then I see something like Grant/Jackson and 130 degrees being put together.

erexere wrote:: I have less confidence in this puzzle for not having been tonthe site in person. The inconsistencies in exactly where thencasque was placed fuel some of the confusion as well. I really like the aerial and appreciate 421thrasher's input for verifying the measurements. There are two very particular shapes on the painting and both are drawn left of the center vertical axis. I believe the idea to "line up" with fence and fixture means to take those background elements into account when standing at the site. Facing north towards Jackson, the fixture will be somewhat more to the left than the fence halo is left innthe upper background when facing west. This position might be best described as the consequence of trying to line up with the trees in line. The numeric factor of just one or both axis if the trees could've been the basis for determining the most ideal factors for 130 degrees. I think degrees is much more significant than anyone knew. Things to consider: 1) image 5 displays the emerald 2) litany of the jewels describes Celtic emerald as the bright eyes, cold morning green. 3) emerald is the May birthstone 4) cold mornings or the average low temperature for Chicago in the month of May are about 20 degrees 5) the facial profile of image 5 looks remarkably like Ulysses S. Grant, he is featured on the $50 bill. 6) Andrew Jackson is featured on the $20 bill When I ponder all of these items along with the idea that the Chicago water tower could be acting as an example of a vertical pipe with varying heights of water, that is something comparable to a common thermometer, then I see something like Grant/Jackson and 130 degrees being put together. I don't think it's that deep.

yup, it should be much deeper

Spiritr wrote:: yup, it should be much deeper I gotta disagree. There isn't much to the Chicago puzzle. Very superficial and laid out in a couple block radius.

Yeah? Believe me, I struggle with the collisions and depths of the ideas that may or may not be ar work here. While I've made several factual declarations, they arent necessarily true of the puzzle. We know Grant Park was the location of the Chicago casque and it doesnt really mean a $50 dollar bill is actually something upon which Preiss and JJP drew any inspiration. Same with Jackson on the $20 and East Jackson Dr., or the temperature idea, where using the litany reference to Emerald and the word "cold" in such a way is in any way an intentional piece of said deep, deeper, or non-deep puzzle. Idiomatic elements make this puzzle something other than obvious or literal. When Preiss uses words like hush and cold, we cant be certain he isnt thinking of money with words that are sometimes used interchangibly so, such as "green", "cold, hard cash" or "hush money". Struggle on.

erexere wrote:: Yeah? Believe me, I struggle with the collisions and depths of the ideas that may or may not be ar work here. While I've made several factual declarations, they arent necessarily true of the puzzle. We know Grant Park was the location of the Chicago casque and it doesnt really mean a $50 dollar bill is actually something upon which Preiss and JJP drew any inspiration. Same with Jackson on the $20 and East Jackson Dr., or the temperature idea, where using the litany reference to Emerald and the word "cold" in such a way is in any way an intentional piece of said deep, deeper, or non-deep puzzle. Idiomatic elements make this puzzle something other than obvious or literal. When Preiss uses words like hush and cold, we cant be certain he isnt thinking of money with words that are sometimes used interchangibly so, such as "green", "cold, hard cash" or "hush money". Struggle on. I like the idea of the money. I just don't think we can then somehow relate this to a hypothetical thermometer to create some imaginary number then translate it into a set of degrees to vector to the casque location. It's not that complicated.

Yeah, I dont like it either, but what if it is only that complex. We dont really know, nor have we really tugged as many strings in the other puzzles. We've certainly tried many angles, and many more complex notions, or just tried to make some random place or object work to our needs. Question is, how much discretion is needed? We stumble hard not knowing,, that's for sure.

erexere wrote:: Yeah, I dont like it either, but what if it is only that complex. We dont really know, nor have we really tugged as many strings in the other puzzles. We've certainly tried many angles, and many more complex notions, or just tried to make some random place or object work to our needs. Question is, how much discretion is needed? We stumble hard not knowing,, that's for sure. I agree to a certain extent, but let's put the Chicago puzzle in perspective. First, this puzzle is not by any means a model for the rest. Second, the guys that found the casque were a group of high school kids, and spent maybe 6 months figuring it out. They did receive some assistance from BP, but for the most part, they had figured out the general location from the Image and Verse alone. If we read the notes and solution, there wasn't anything deep or involved with it. Just see this object, go to the next object, most of which were either explicitly shown in the Image or described in the verse. I went there late last year, and you could almost find the casque today if you had to, with the exception of the trees. While this puzzle is not a good model for the rest, it is the best evidence with direct interaction with BP we have. I would think that if there were some deep complex meanings behind it, he would have said, "you guys need to think deeper before I give you clues."

For clarity, key words in the verse having to do with some intended purpose in each verse AND extending each respsective jewel to what key words are used to describe them in the Litany is as far as the model goes for me. What specific words or objects were used in Chicago are in no way representative of other puzzles, because each have ample room for their own specifics, but HOW any idiomatic usage or word meaning is applied to have a desired result or "hidden" purpose is in basic sense established by how Cleveland and Chicago may be demonstrated to work. It's purely speculative, however, given that MUCH information has been packaged by third-parties.

Unknown: Very superficial and laid out in a couple block radius. Just like Saint Augustine and Houston. And allowing for distance, Milwaukee and Roanoke as well.

erexere wrote:: For clarity, key words in the verse having to do with some intended purpose in each verse AND extending each respsective jewel to what key words are used to describe them in the Litany is as far as the model goes for me. What specific words or objects were used in Chicago are in no way representative of other puzzles, because each have ample room for their own specifics, but HOW any idiomatic usage or word meaning is applied to have a desired result or "hidden" purpose is in basic sense established by how Cleveland and Chicago may be demonstrated to work. It's purely speculative, however, given that MUCH information has been packaged by third-parties. what information? packaged by which third parties?

It's all hearsay to me.

I gotta say I really like the "cold morning green" connections you suggested, I just can't think of anything to go against it

I love when I get random hits on things based on asymmetrical Google searches. I haven't read through this all, but a long history about Grant Park. You have to follow the links. 1830 to Present Day. Not sure if there is any valuable info, but interesting nonetheless. https://www.chipublib.org/blogs/post/hi ... 1830-1871/